SFL Archives Vol 11 readthrough update 04

34% completion, 135 bookmarks

-Continued LORD OF THE RINGS language chat, with one SFLer going back to the Hobbit and Gandalf being unable to read elfish script correctly.

-The 1985-1986 reviewer-idiotking of the SF-LOVERS mailing list posts a review of the 1958 movie HIDDEN FORTRESS (not being the inspiration for lots of visuals in Star Wars: A New Hope) so brain-dead, everyone starts dunking on him with detailed illuminating reviews of SciFi & Fantasy stories/movies/cartoons/Anime/Manga that they have come across.

-Someone goes next level stalker and posts Harlan Ellison's phone number to the SF-LOVERS mailing list; encouraging other people to call Ellison out-of-the-blue like he did. Most of the SFL has a "WTF, dude..seriously WTF" reaction, while the person who posted Harlan Ellison's phone number to the internet triples-down and says that Ellison likes fan contact/gets off on the adversarial phone calls he makes/made to Ellison. 

-Proto-otaku's start to emerge in the SFL Archives with posts like "Congratulations! You have just discovered the world of Japanese Manga (comic books)." and Subject:Japanese Animation: An Introduction for the Uninitiated". Most of the 1986 proto-otaku's/all-things-Japan subject matter experts come from the ARPANET node at the University of Waterloo Canada

-People start complaining about BAEN BOOKS repacking decades old Keith Laumer stories as new content.

-Yet another installment of the "Advice requested for a <1986> new author looking to get published" and the responses.

-SHORT CIRCUIT the movie comes out and someone low-key compares it to John Sladek's story TIK TOK.

-A weird bit of SciFi pulp fiction creeps out. In 1948 or early 1949, a anonymous person sent in a fake review of the upcoming October or November 1949 issue of ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION magazine, complete with author & story title listing. John W. Campbell bit, and low-key contacted the authors listed in that fake review ASF review and had them write SciFi stories using those story titles, and then published everything listed in that fake review. JW Campbell then used that gag as a editorial hook-line about how Science Fiction can become a Self-Fulfilling prophecy.

(2020 note: I haven't googled any this so far. Currently hope that it was real and not someone making up a fake story to burnish how amazing JW Campbell was an editor/human being/lover)

-1980's tv series REMINGTON STEEL has been canceled, and it looks like Pierce Brosnan is going to be the next James Bond in "THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS" (2020 note: I know what happened IRL regarding this)

-Another joint Larry Niven/Jerry Pournelle book starts getting discussed....this time it is FOOTFALL @1985, and some of the SFLer descriptions of the plot and aliens and actions taken in it sort of has me thinking Footfall is one of canon sources for the ugly-as-fucking-hell scifi Web Comic Shlock mercenary 

-THIS ISLAND EARTH, a 1955 movie starts getting mentioned because it appeared as clips in a recent Steven Spielberg movie (The Explorers or the Goonies, or possibly an episode of Amazing Stories)

-Medicare for all, aka the old pulp SciFi story about "a libertarian being unable to pay the grossly inflated hospital bill for his daughters birth, so he lets the hospital raise her and educate her until the daughter grows old enough to pay it off herself" gets mentioned. (2020 note: I read this story a few years ago and slight spoiler the hospital almost bankrupted itself trying to calculate all the interest due when the daughter-raised-by-the-hospital was about graduate college)

-L Neil Smith, founder of the Libertarian Hugo Award and all the bizarre things that 1986 era SFLers were able to dig up on L Neil Smith, like winning the award he founded 3 times, and writing a libertarian novel where the default libertarian heroes had to travel in time to stop Jane Fonda, in full 1980's exercise mode, from destroying the future's beautiful libertarian utopia

-Bruce Sterling's SCHISMATRIX comes up for one of the first times in SFL Archives history. (2020 note: Schismatrix was a ground-defining book for post-humanity stories...and pretty much everything else Bruce Sterling has written can safely be ignored). 

-HARD TO BE A GOD, the Arkady Strugatsky & Boris Strugatsky Noon Universe setting story about a Progessor agent going undercover in a off-planet medieval civilization comes up for the first time in SFL Archives history. 

-The DOCTOR WHO series possibly maybe casting a female Doctor Who ends up as another fan-baiting "f**k you" rumor by John Nathan-Turner

-First mention of CJ Cherryh's 1985 novel CUCKOO'S EGG in the SFL Archives 

-1986 SFL people continue debating Tolkien lore throughout April 1986 into early June 1986 and gradually come to the conclusion that GANDALF IS ILLITERATE

(2020 take: Thanks to this, 2020 me now thinks of pre-scourging Gandalf the Grey as a Charlie Kelly guy, happy to chill with idiot hobbits because Saruman is Dennis Reynolds. Which would make Sweet Dee Reynolds = Radagast aka the "Bird Wizard". Mac would be the two unknown LotR Blue Wizards, symbolizing Mac before he came out and Mac after he came out. Frank would be Tom Bombadil, with either Gail the Snail or Roxy the whore as Bombadil's bang-buddy Goldberry. The McPoyles are Elrond and his clan. And of course, Rickety Cricket is Gollum) 

SFL Archives Vol 10 readthrough update 03

 Certain topics have cropped up again and again periodically in the SFL Archives read-through.

 Larry Niven's KNOWN SPACE/DOWN IN FLAMES, matter transportation, filkchat, childrens tv shows, etc..luckily each time the discussion on <reoccuring-subject> has focused on something new rather than rehashing old-arguments.

-Relative newcomer to the book publishing field BAEN BOOKS (established 1983) is getting referenced more and more.

-V the series. SFLers still can't get over why the Visitor's came to Earth for H20 aka water when water is freely available in so many other places. 

(2020 take: Replacing water with biologicals would have worked better. Think of how coffee plants originally only grew in South America, or how tasty spices mostly grew in the tropics, and the Mace/Nutmeg spice island being traded 1:1 for the city-island New Amsterdam aka New York City. Now make that intergalactic, and the Visitors are coming for this rare delicacy called "potatoes" or "crab-apples".)

-Sometime in late 1985 Samuel Delany's DHALGREN starts being used a test for the top tier of SFF fandom or "fendom" (a mispelling of fans/fandom which SFF fans adopted similar to "filksongs")

(2020 sidenote: Everyone involved in filksongs, I hate you. Entirely.)

essentially the Dhalgren test is:
If you managed to read Dhalgren completely and like it, you pass the test. -Samuel Delany megafans.
If you think Dhalgren is overblown and/or garbage, f**k you you goddamn fake fen -also Samuel Delany megafans.

(2020 Sidenote: Someone in the SFL Archives stated that Samuel R Delany circa the 1980s had multiple health issues ranging from no short term memory, epilepsy, seizures, [sarcasm]Assassins Creed Eagle Sense, the power to turn water into mead[/sarcasm], etc. Contributing to why Delany's writing and stories do not follow normal storytelling conventions, and why they found Delany so inspiring.
How much of that (outside of my sarcasm tags) was bullshit or real? I don't really follow Samuel R Delany because he creeps me out hard on a "acclaimed French Writer Gabriel Matzneff" level. )

-BRIDGE OF BIRDS gets mentioned for the first time in SFL archives as well as similar themed stories

-Someone in late 1985 mentions a bunch of "intelligent dolphin" stories that aren't David Brin's Uplift setting and wants more. DolphinF**ker is inexplicably not the author of those posts.

-Matter transportation comes back as a topic of discussion in late 1985, but focuses on souls/who is the original in 1985 vs the earlier "how do they transmit all that data" and "how do they *STORE* all that data" debates.

-The 1985 version o KNOWN SPACE/DOWN IN FLAMES discussion focuses on how Larry Niven's Protector book syncs up with the rest of the Known Space series and the Ringworld. lots of interesting ideas and theories that Niven will never deal with sadly.

-A throw-away reference to female fans being advised to avoid Isaac Asimov if encountered alone at scifi-conventions

-BACK TO THE FUTURE 1 came out in July 1985, and discussion about time-line split-offs with Marty 1 timeline, Marty 1955 timelines, and who goes where/who gets replaced kicks off. Definitely seen identical arguments on this same subject on SA threads.

-November 5th being a frequent "go to/execute/the movie happens now" date for time travel stories comes up and never gets resolved (so far)

-Author nepotism, SFL authors dissing other SFL authors, SFL authors arguing about Hugo & Nebula awards, more author self-doxxes

-Book publisher f**kery part 36: publishers f**king up basic things like getting the authors name spelled correctly (or listed at all!), and f**king up the book title on book spines/title pages on 1st printing runs

-The 2nd hand story of how Jerry Pournelle lost his guest account arpanet access. Pournelle did *something* and "refuses to suck up to the post-grad" managing the ARPANET node to get his ARPANET guest account back.

-Reminisces about Theodore Sturgeon's career brought up the cringy-amusing time a fan invoked STURGEON'S LAW at Theodore Sturgeon during a SciFi convention panel by directly quoting excerpts from some of Sturgeon's crappier stories at him.

-Part two of people asking how to get in contact with authors. This time some of the self-avowed/self-doxxed SFL authors respond back on the best methods to do so(contact publishing company/ask a research desk librarian). Think I skipped mentioned part one which happened circa 1982? because back then it was clear the people asking weren't satisfied with merely sending letters, they wanted direct no limits one on one access.

originally posted August 27th - September 2nd in the SomethingAwful forums Science Fiction Fantasy Megathread 

SFL Archives Vol 03 readthrough update 01

-All the hopefulness posting about the Space Shuttle program in January 1981 makes me sad. These 1981 people had no idea what kind of disappointments lay ahead for the Space Shuttle program. "space filling foam" and "picking up shuttle tiles" SFL comments aged particularly badly. 

-Lots of 1960's/1970's/1980 era computer hardware failure stories/urban myths have been the exclusive topic of discussion for the past week or so. 4 parts urban myth stories to 3 parts "seen by a friend/me stories" to 1 part "destroying hardware is cool, here is how I *wink* would *wink* theoretically* wink* do so *wink*". That 1 part being so enthusiastic is another chapter in seeing Robert Tappan Morris's hijinks in a more sympathetic light.

(2020 sidenote: For people who never saw or dealt with 1960's/1970's/1980's computer hardware, in your head picture the following:

the TONKA school of design but everything built is extremely heavy, very fragile, and poorly welded in a era where OSHA compliance was people making you put money in the office swear-jar after you said "OH SHi--" during a nasty hardware failure event.)

-Jerry Pournelle posted a Press Release teaser for OATH OF FEALTY, his 1981 co-written with Larry Niven book about :sigh: hardcore libertarian's solving all of society's problems. (either genuinely never heard of this book before or I blocked all memories of it after reading because of it's terribleness. it's probably the 2nd thing, I hunted down Niven stories growing up)

-STAR WARS fan-fiction legality and gay characters appearing/not appearing in official Star Wars products.

-filksongs continue to appear and continue to annoy me (filksongs are/were SFF fan lyics karaoked over popular songs) enough to finally mention them in a "Let's read the SFL archives" post.

-The first appearance of "do my <college mathematics course> homework/research for me" appeared in the SFL archives around mid January 1981.

- The 1981 LastCon in Albany NY cosplay contest winner was a lady wearing "a costume of Luke riding a Taun-Taun", and then "all people in costume should go down to the disco and truly freak out the mundanes."...which happened, but the disco's bouncer bounced the Luke-on-Taun-Taun cosplayer.

(2020 sidenote: to read the full story of Lastcon 1981, search SFL Vol 03 for [[ DP@MIT-ML 01/28/81 00:25:49 Re: Lastcon report ]].)

-LS.MELTSNER made a series of posts about why they find hard-core libertarianism books so unrealistic, which kicked off a debate about libertarism in fiction featuring the heinlein defense squad.

-Robert Forward and a SFL troll in rare non-troll mode both posted "advice for new writers circa 1981". reposting both messages as historical data for the authors/aspiring authors reading this thread.

------------------------------

Date: 18 JAN 1981 1102-PST

From: FORWARD at USC-ECL

Subject: Amateur Author Query

Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine has a few sheets of

advice and instructions to new writers that you should get, read,

and follow. Send a self-addressed stamped long business-size

envelope and a note requesting "Advice to Authors" to: IASFM,

Box 13116, Philadelphia, PA 19101.

After you have written your short story (following George

Scither's advice), then just mail it to one of the science fiction

magazines, where it will be read BY THE EDITOR. Most people don't

believe it, but ALL manuscripts to Analog, IASFM, and Omni are at

least glanced at by the respective editors. The only winnowing

that is done by the editorial assistants is to 1) make sure that

your name and address is on the manuscript, 2) the return envelope

has postage on it, 3) it is double-spaced, single-sided, and in

english, 4) is a story, not a letter. The assistant then makes

two piles, one of stories from authors that have published before,

and another of those that are not so familiar sounding. The first

stack gets the editors attention right away, but that only takes

a few hours, the editor then devotes the rest of his time, and

his commuting time on train or plane searching through the "slush"

pile for that great gem, a new author. George Scithers has been

averaging one new author an issue.

You do get paid for stories by the professional magazines.

5-7 cents per word by the digest size ones, up to $500-1500 by

Omni. You will also receive a contract outlining the rights

they are buying. You should only sell "first world English

language serial rights" to your copyright.

As for copyrights, you are protected under the new law when

you type "Copyright (c) 1980 by Ima Newauthor" on the front page.

When the story is published by the magazine, and IF they send in

the two copies and the filing fee to the Register of Copyrights,

then your copyright is automatically registered.

Any other questions?

Bob Forward

------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 18 JAN 1981 2203-EST

From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock)

Subject: first stories

SALES are easy. You just keep sending out everything you write

to every conceivable market, and sooner or later something will

catch on. This can take a \long/ time, but it works for most

people who have the persistence. Obvious markets: the editorial

offices (listed on the contents pages) of ANALOG, ASIMOV'S, F&SF,

AMAZING/FANTASTIC if you have little pride and no expectation of

being paid, OMNI for the thrill. Note that Asimov's will send a

style sheet (in fact, they request that you send for it before

sending them anything) on format for a submitted manuscript;

it's very helpful.

COPYRIGHT: state on the title page "Copyright [c-in-a-circle]

[year] by [your name]"; under the revised law this is sufificient

until the manuscript is actually published, at which point other

factors are managed by the publisher. \Always/ keep a carbon for

evidence, reference, and the perversity of the Post Offal.

MONEY: Usually a zine has a fixed rate per word, sliding downward

for longer material. None of the above are entitled to publish the

story for free, although there are magazines of legend which paid

authors only on threat of lawsuit. Others pay on acceptance or

publication.

REVIEWING: This is the hardest part. Asking friends is a good way

to get sweetened criticism and/or drive them away. Frequently an

editor who sees some promise in a work will take some time to point

outflaws, although a commentless bounce doesn't mean it's hopeless;

editors vary and I don't know what current personal policies are.

The National Fantasy Fan Federation has a story contest which may

get you some useful comments; the one with 12/1/80 deadline was

managed by Donald Franson, 6543 Babcock Ave., North Hollywood CA

91606; he should know about next year's contest. If you're \really/

serious about this, there are some good beginning writers' workshops,

and a lot of terrible ones.

ADVICE: Magazines are frequently in need of good short material,

although such will often take longer to appear once sold. First

novels without a published background and/or a sponsor are difficult

to sell, although you could always try Manor Books if you can think

of a good pseudonym. Once you sell something, you are eligible to

join SF Writers of America, an organization with many flaws but

some overriding virtues; do so.

GOOD LUCK! And let us all know when you sell something.

------------------------------ 

originally posted between June 29th - June 30th in the SomethingAwful forums Science Fiction Fantasy Megathread 3

SFL Archives Vol 02 readthrough update 01

 SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 02 is a much harder read than Vol 01 since I am finding lots of things in it more interesting and forcing myself to not get too side-tracked when really interesting stories got mentioned (for example, Clifford Simak's WAY STATION). This where I start short-handing all references to the SF-LOVERS Mailing List Digest into the SFL or the SFL Archives.

-Matter teleportation chat kicked off Vol 02, which then morphed into "how do you transport the data site to site with matter teleportation" chat, which have currently morphed into debates about using Godel numbers for encoding/transmitting/deciphering data across interstellar distances to alien lifeforms/races.

-GODEL NUMBERS aka GODEL NUMBERING is a cool concept. Just not so sure how other races/lifeforms across the galaxies would instinctively "know" to factor down the Godel numbers into their prime components or even understand the numbering scheme used in the first place. 

-20% completion into SFL Archives Vol 02, for the last twenty or so posts in the SF-LOVERS mailing list people have been ripping apart Robert Heinlein and it's glorious. Heinlein's NUMBER OF THE BEAST (@1980) was so self-indulgent it ripped the blinders off the eyes of many post-grad SFL posters that formerly tolerated or had fond memories of Heinlein stories growing up......

(2020 sidenote: Which is retroactively amusing slash interesting because the current tier of Big Name/Big Sales SciFi genre authors like John Ringo, John Scalzi, and Charles Stross were hitting their formative pre-teens - teens around 1980 and all of them ended up loving everything Heinlein has ever written/have rewritten multiple Heinlein stories/Heinlein book series.) 

-Arguments about Larry Niven's KNOWN SPACE setting and Larry Niven's RINGWORLD books being incompatible or (my view) existing in alternate universes. Lots of the Ringworld books weirdness & it not meshing with Niven's Known Space stories passed me by whenever I read any of the Ringworld books because I was very creeped out by all the pervy sex fantasies Niven was one-handedly writing out.

-First SF-LOVERS appearance of Jerry E Pournelle, noted author, dream-weaver, visionary plus actor plus PhD in political science. Pournelle rips apart the 20 yrs in the future environmental forecast GLOBAL 2000 REPORT (a state of the world in 2000 guessimate report).

-Robert Heinlein style Libertarianism starts getting name dropped/espoused more and more. And always used in Heinlein-ian phrasing and pre-constructed Heinlein-ian arguments, nothing original is allowed.

-Someone's friend who never got into scifi watched Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back, and made the valid arguments that:

"There is no question that George Lucas is creating the mythology which will be coloring the subconscious of the growing generation, just like Walt Disney's characters are forever a part of my psyche. That's why The Empire Strikes Back makes me so angry. It is merely a rehash of old war movies with all their worst cliches and pat killings intact. But even John Wayne and Frank Sinatra, in all their male-buddy-kill-the-Krauts (or Injuns) showed some compassion - if for nothing else than their horses. But the Taun-Taun in TESB doesn't rate such compassion. It has the audacity to freeze to death and stink in the process. The whole film just glorifies killing....."

Many many long-time SF-LOVERS posters rebutted back with, and I am paraphrasing here "No No No. You are wrong, do not insult my Favs, you are very wrong and need to grow up"

(2020 sidenote: For the record, I agree with the someone's friend who never got into scifi viewpoint.) 

originally posted between June 24th - June 25th in the SomethingAwful forums Science Fiction Fantasy Megathread 3

SFL Archives Vol 01 readthrough update 02

 SFL Archives Vol 01 42% completion

-Both Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle make the humble-brag claim at a 1980 MIT lecture called "How to get Rich Quick" that "they, and many other experienced authors write without editing their work" (DGSHARP@MIT-AI 02-13-1980). Robert Forward chimed in a few days later to "clarify" Niven and Pournelle's statements  about the  "never editing" or revising their work statements that Niven and Pournelle made at that 1980 MIT Lecture. Robert Forward tosses in the humble-brag of  (literal quote from Robert Forward)"Poul Anderson and me both agonize over each word at least 6 or 8 times before the final draft is sent into the publishers." 

-An early collaborative fantasy-scifi world setting called Darkover keeps getting mentioned over and over again in the SF-LOVERS. However, this is one of the things that have aged super badly because Marion Zimmer Bradley was a major contributor to the Darkover series...and keeps getting praised for writing strong female characters in the Darkover stories. Ughh.

-During discussion of black main characters, SALawrence@MIT-Multics brought up Richard Lupoff's novel THE SACRED LOCOMOTIVE FLIES because of it's sheer weirdness. The Sacred Locomotive Flies had a white main character but almost everyone else in the book was secretly black and appeared to be white-people by taking a weird drug that changed their skin color and also made them obese as a side-effect. This book sounds weird enough that I've added it to my "try to find it" list

-More retroactively weird Star Wars stuff. Fanzines named BANTHA TRACKS (great user name btw) and ALDERAAN. One on one interviews with David Prouse, the body-actor actively erased from Star Wars by Lucas and Disney. Bootleg SW character themes & SW themed albums before John Williams scores became the default Star Wars sound.

-Richard Stallman (RMS@MIT-AI) just popped up on the SF-LOVERS mailing list for the first time ever. Noticed it was him from the EMACS humblebrag and the omnipresent RMS handle. Just checked, RMS only posted 3 times in the Vol 01 SF-LOVERS Digest. 2nd time was debating about Darth Vader really being Luke's father and 3rd time was to nitpick a core piece of Robert Forward's novel Dragons Egg.

-Mentioning Philip Jose Farmer ripping off Roger Zelazny brought some feedback.

SomethingAful user jng2058 posted on June 20, 2020:

   That's a pretty harsh mischaracterization of what went on. I'm holding a third printing of Sign of the Unicorn and it's dedication is "For Jadawin and his Demiurge, not to forget Kickaha." Those being the main characters of "The World of Tiers," of course. You don't dedicate your book to the characters of a novel series you're homaging if you're worried they're going to sue you. For that matter, outside the barest of story beats of "dude on Earth encounters people of great power and then discovers he's one of those people afflicted with amnesia", the stories diverge pretty quickly.

    And it's not like you can sue over general story points anyhow, or else there'd be no end to the lawsuits between "guy with gun shoots a lot of bad guys" authors. Fer f*ck's sake, Paolini's Inheritance Cycle is just Star Wars with Dragons, with the movie for Eragon being even more so, and no one ever sued about that shit, and those are multi-billion dollar corporations with lawyers on staff whose job is to sue over shit like that.

    Perhaps most importantly we should remember that "good authors borrow, great authors steal." Whether you think Amber "sucked and was derivative" or not, the books were very popular and most people here know what you're talking about when you mention them, and a good percentage of us have read them. Far fewer have so much as heard of "The World of Tiers", much less seen a copy to read. Taking an existing story and transforming it and improving it such that no one remembers the original is the mark of a great writer.

    Unless you think Shakespeare adapting the lives of an obscure Danish prince and a thane of Scotland into two of the greatest tragedies in the English language was "derivative". :rolleyes:

My SomethingAwful forums response to jng2058:

Calm the f**k down.

Or get mad at AQE@MIT-MC and their 03-19-1980 post "Re: Similarities between "World of Tiers" and "Amber" which I quoted.

Lots of people in this thread and the previous SF&F mega-thread have commented that Zelazny's Amber series isn't the greatest and was at best written for the paycheck.

Originally posted Jun 20, 2020 18:15 on the SomethingAwful forums Book Barn Science Fiction Fantasy Megathread 3 thread