SFL Archives Volume 21a readthrough

 SFL Archives Volume 21a

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100% completion, 312 bookmarks

Movies, television shows, etc referenced: FOREVER KNIGHT (tv-series), CITY OF LOST CHILDREN, BATMAN AND ROBIN, SCREAMERS, SEAQUEST DSV (tv-series), EARTH 2  (tv-series), HYPERNAUTS (tv-series), BABYLON 5 (tv-series), SPACE ABOVE AND BEYOND (tv-series), AMERICAN GOTHIC (tv-series), HIGHLANDER THE TV SERIES, THE SENTINEL (tv-series), LAWNMOWER MAN 2, STARSHIP TROOPERS 1, 12 MONKEYS, GENERATION X, SPELLBINDER, SPACE CASES (tv-series), CONTACT, THE OUTER LIMITS (tv-series), NOWHERE MAN (tv-series), STAR COMMAND, SLIDERS (tv-series), THE WANDERER (tv-series), THE SECRET WORLD OF ALEX MACK (tv-series), MARY REILLY, MUPPET TREASURE ISLAND, GHOST IN THE SHELL, LIQUID SKY, ALIENS IN THE FAMILY (tv-series), JOURNEY TO MARS, INDEPENDENCE DAY, STAR TREK: DEEP SPACE NINE (tv-series), STAR TREK: VOYAGER (tv-series), KINDRED: THE EMBRACED (tv-series), THE OSIRIS CHRONICLES, HACKERS, POLTERGEIST THE TV SERIES, HYPERNAUTS (tv-series), THE ODYSSEY (tv-series), PETER JACKSON'S KING KONG, A.P.E.X., WITHOUT WARNING, ALIEN 4 RESURRECTION, COAST TO COAST (radio),  SALVAGE ONE (tv-series), SUPERNOVA, THE CRAFT, BARB WIRE, CASABLANCA, DRAGONHEART, MARS ATTACKS!, DOCTOR WHO: THE TELEVISION MOVIE, MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000: THE MOVIE, THE WIND OF AMNESIA, MISSION IMPOSSIBLE 1996, THE ARRIVAL, DARK SKIES (tv-series), THE PRETENDER (tv-series), ANNIHILATOR, CRASH, JAG (tv-series), PRISONERS OF GRAVITY (tv-series), ISLAND OF DR MOREAU, THE PHANTOM, UFO (tv-series), BLAKES 7 (tv-series), RED DWARF (tv-series), LA JETTE.

SF&F stories referenced: CETAGANDA, STONE OF TEARS, THE REALITY DISJUNCTION, SAGA OF RECLUSE, THE BLOODY RED BARON, PROTEKTOR, SEA WITHOUT A SHORE, FIRE UPON THE DEEP, THE KILLING STAR,SFBC SFF ENCYCLOPEDIA, THE SHEEP LOOK UP, DJINN RUMMY, HEADCRASH, SONG OF GAMBLER PHAID, THE PSALMS OF HEROD, THE MURDERED SUN, THE ETERNAL MERCENARY, EXCESSION, USE OF WEAPONS, DISTRESS, REPLAY,ASSASSINS APPRENTICE, ROSE MADDER, MAGNIFICAT, THE LIGHT OF OTHER DAYS, SWORD OF BHELEU, QUEEN OF ANGELS, STARTIDE RISING, MIDSHIPMANS HOPE, OATHS AND MIRACLES, ANUBIS GATES, BLUE MARS, ASHES OF EDEN, THE DIAMOND AGE, INTERFACE, CLIPJOINT CONFUSION, LOST WORLD, BRANCH POINT, WHEN HEAVEN FELL, TWO CROWNS FOR AMERICA, THE DISPOSSESSED, GUN WITH OCCASIONAL MUSIC, THE DAY IS NIGHT, STATUS QUOTIENT: THE CARRIER, WEREWOLVES OF LONDON, MR ADAM, HOLE IN THE HOLE, HALF THE DAY IS NIGHT, CHINA MOUNTAIN ZHANG, THRESHOLD, THE BLUE STAR, RESURRECTION MAN, DRAKON, DRAKA, REUNION ON NEVEREND, AMTRAK WARS, SALMON OF DOUBT, FIREFLY, GLORY, GOD-MAN, GLITTERING STONE, THE MACE OF SOULS, RICHTER 10, WIZARDRY UESTED, WILDSIDE, THE STAR FRACTION, A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ, FORAGERS, THE FACES OF SCIENCE FICTION, PRIMARY INVERSION, ORCA, GREEN EYES, ENDYMION, PROCESSING THE SIMILACRA FOR FUN AND PROFIT, STRIKING THE BALANCE, DOOMSDAY BOOK, THE MOONHARE, A MAN BETRAYED, BEGGARS AND CHOOSERS, INFERNO, SECRETS OF THE WITCH WORLD, KILLER STAR, THE TWO GEORGES, REMNANT POPULATION, THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD ENDS, THE WINE OF VIOLENCE, KEEPERS OF THE HIDDEN WAYS, THE HACKER AND THE ANTS, HOT SKY AT MIDNIGHT, MISTRESS OF MISTRESSES, TIGANA, VIDEO STAR, OF THUD AND BLUNDER, GRAVITY, HARM'S WAY, DRASTIC DRAGON OF DRACO TEXAS, MARTIAN DEATHTRAP, ASSEMBLERS OF INFINITY, ENCOUNTER WITH TIBER, HONOR AMONG ENEMIES, CONSIDER PHLEBAS, CITIES IN FLIGHT, MERIDIAN DAYS, RINGWORLD THRONE, RESUME WITH MONSTERS, THE TIME SHIPS, CELESTIAL MATTERS, LEFT TO HIS OWN DEVICES, HISTORICAL CRISIS, THE TERMINAL EXPERIMENT, WITCHES OF KARRES, GENETIC SOLDIER, DEMON IN THE SKULL, PIRATES OF THE UNIVERSE, MUSHROOM PLANET, THE GUNSLINGER, NIFFT THE LEAN, THE CHOSEN, EYE OF ARGON, THE UPLIFT WAR, THE FORTUNATE FALL, JUSTICE CITY, EDGEWORKS: THE COLLECTED ELLISON VOL 01, PANDA RAY, THE LITTLE COUNTRY, ALWAYS COMING HOME, THE GREAT DIVORCE.

Pop culture references: a pre-Internet fame Harry Knowles starts posting to the SFL Archives, a pre-Internet fame Mr Skin starts posting to the SFL Archives, Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine, Compuserve Science Fiction and Fantasy Literature Forum, the Del Rey Internet Newsletter, the Slim Jim Racing Team, Society of Combustion Engineers, the alternative convention newsletter WRATH OF GHU at Evolution Con 1996, Milli Vanilli lip-synching at concerts, the New Hackers Dictionary, Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5, listening to Art Bell's COAST TO COAST, as "accurate as a SCUD missile". 

Technology callbacks: Solaris 2.5,USEnet newsgroups, Ziff Davis Net, GEnie, multi-user HERETIC + DOOM + WING COMMANDER 4, RealAudio, the Nintendo 64 version of STAR WARS: SHADOW OF THE EMPIRE, Windows 3.1, Casio QV-10 digital camera, Laser Printers, Microsoft Access, whatever a "salami scam" is in the novelization of the 1995 movie HACKERS, the various Rainbow cover colored publications of the NSA & the DOD, Altavista Internet search engine and DejaNews, book publishers saving money by using huge oversized type fonts for Hardcover editions of SFF novels so the same printing films can be reused for the paperback editions.

1996 Death notices: Walter Michael Miller Jr, SFF author. Brian Daley, SFF author. Bob Shaw, SFF author. Elsie Wollheim, co-founder of DAW Books and SFF Futurian founding member. Jon Pertwee, film/stage/tv/radio/3rd DOCTOR WHO actor.

SFL requests/discussion topics:

> Not for Kids! (SFF material)

> 1996 Hugo Award nominations

> Re: Gordon R. Dickson

> Re: Foundation series - so what's the big deal?

> Re: Whatever happened to author "Steven Boyett"?

> Chapter House Dune: anyone understand it?

> Re: Heinlein's books

> Drakon (Stirling) question--extremely minor spoilers

> Re: Firefly (P. Anthony)

> Re: Banks: Mandate for SC?

> Re: Darkover novels

> Re: 12 Monkeys Ending (Spoiler) "insurance"?

> Re: A Canticle for Leibowitz

> Re: H. Beam Piper stories

> Re: Donaldson: Thomas Covenant Series

> WHY THIS WILL BE MY LAST MINICON

> MINICON 1996 Drama

> EVOLUTION CON 1996

> Roland Castle vs the World

> Re: Metropolitan magic (was Re: Walter Jon Williams)

> Glen Cook Black Company: questions about the Taken

> Re: What is it about Tigana?

> Re: Voyager shuttles fleet!

> Re: Con trends

> MAY: A list of Current Fanzines

> Re: Maureen Birnbaum

> George Alec Effinger on why his novel GRAVITY hides it's New Orleans setting.  

> Re: [FANHIST} Changes in Fannish Culture

> Re: Banks Consider Phlebas -- what does the title mean

> Boulle's Other Books?

> Re: What the hell happened to Barry Malzberg?

> Re: Alfred Bester: His later books 

> Re: (C.S.) Lewis redux

> Re: Tarzan(?!?) of Mars

-First mention of DOOM the 1993 FPS game having a movie adaptation in the works.

(2021 note: The DOOM movie would eventually come out in 2005.)

-<U616@wvnwm.wvnet.edu> makes a joking not joking plea for the UNABOMBER to bomb the NBC Studios buildings in California for the terrible crime of NBC having greenlit and aired episodes of SEAQUEST DSV, and EARTH 2.  

-SFF magazines ANALOG & ASIMOV's SCIFI along with Alfred Hitchock Mysteries, Ellery Queen Mysteries and every other magazine published by Dell gets sold to a holding company called Penny Press.

-Multiple conflicting reviews of Magnum Opus Con 10a. Some people attended it just for the raves and house parties and the extreme adults only content, others attended MOC10a for the SFF convention elements.

(2021 note: I looked up MOC10a because it was full of extreme drama and skeeviness. MOC10a's organizer had a Donald Trump addiction to attention and had a death grudge vs Ed Kramer and vs DragonCon. Fancyclopedia has informed me that Ed Kramer, one of the founders of DragonCon, has been a convicted sex offender since 2000.)

-A tv movie called SPACE COMMAND produced by Melinda Snodgrass, and virtually everyone in the SFL Archives busts on the many manyterrible bits in it like the hackneyed dialogue and the good/evil color coding setup, and oh yeah a really badly miscast Morgan Fairchild who was mainly notable in STAR COMMAND for her skintight clothing and multiple outfit changes.

-A very very special SFLer re-posts George RR Martin's comments on SLIDERS the tv-series vs GRRM's never-picked up tv-series pilot DOORWAYS from GEnie. tldr version: GRRM is extremely not-mad about SLIDERS existence and is considering lawsuits. 

(2021 note: GRRM was extremely mad about SLIDERS existence and I will repost GRRM's comments in a standalone post. The SFLer who reposted GRRM's comments is Gharlane of Eddore, a "get off my SFF lawn/screamer at clouds" contrarian who loves GRRM so much I have now started thinking Gharlane is a sock-puppet account of GRRM or that Gharlane is Chip Hitchcock, the SFL Archives first Internet troll-village idiot, posting under a new name to avoid backlash over their management of BOSKONE 24.)

-Forrest J Ackerman gives his side of the story about losing control of the FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND SFF-Horror magazine. FJ Ackerman is extremely mad about losing control and madder about their articles in that magazine being rewritten by people who weren't even born when Ackerman was a SFF-Horror fan.

-"this is a typical cycle - male author gets old and writes bizarre sex ramblings"

-STAR WARS REMASTERED, the first clips of STAR WARS 1977 "The way George Lucas always intended it to look" start coming out and STAR WARS deprived fans are beyond happy.

(2021 note: The infamous re-cut of HAN SOLO SHOT FIRST is not included in the teaser clips LucasFilms has been showing to journalists or big-name STAR WARS fandom publications.) 

-Lots of 1996 Convention discussion. MOC10a had the most drama and drama-causing people, MINICON 1996 had major issues, Evolution 1996 seemed chill. The surprisingly deep decisions involved in making SFF Convention badges got discussed, libertarian SFLers want all info shared including hotel name + hotel room numbers (very skeevy and worrying for female SFF fandom), others want fields for SFF names, etc. Best font sizes for badges, good long test names for badge fonts, etc. SFF guidelines for little (5 yrs old or less) at SFF conventions, Security guards being assholes and hassling SFF convention attendees, COSPLAY costume drama, etc. ROC of AGES 1996 was notable for being a entirely new SFF convention 100% funded by a SFF fan that won the lottery and featured Roland Castle throwing multiple attention seeking hissy fits.

-Establishment of the SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY HALL OF FAME, hosted at the University of Kansas, USA.

-First mention of Peter Jackson's KING KONG being in production.

-DHALGREN fans being instantly identifiable at SFF Conventions by their orchids and "other adornments".

-NO PERSON WHO GREW UP IN CANADA HAD EVER WON A HUGO OR NEBULA AWARD UNTIL THE 1995 NEBULA AWARDS.

-The flip-book animation of a spaceship exploding inside hardcover printings of HONOR AMONG ENEMIES.

-SFLer's discuss the overt references to CASABLANCA in the Pamela Anderson movie BARB WIRE.

-Extremely deep discussion of the 1996 Charlie Sheen movie THE ARRIVAL. The SFLers who hate it find fault with the technology used in it, especially the crowd-sourced satellite dish antennas, while the portion of SFLers who know radio astronomy actually liked the film and found the technology feasible and real, especially the crowd-sourced satellite dish antennas.

-David Drake delivers an ice-burn regarding SM Stirling's writing when discussing THE CHOSEN, a book co-written by Stirling and David Drake..."the point of the book was to teach Stirling how to write a book in which the bad guys *lose*", and the resemblance to the Draka was fully intentional on his part(Drake did a 20k word outline that Stirling expanded out into a novel).  

-Periodic Daniel Keys Moran discussion. Star Trek Voyager allegedly ripping off a DKM submitted spec-script. Daniel Keys Moran's literary agent that is in talks with Bantam Books suddenly switches to "Daniel Keys Moran has no relationship with Bantam Books anymore", no explanation given. Daniel Keys Moran claims to have two new CONTINUING TIME series books ready for publishing with minimal delay.

(2021 note: It would take over a decade for the next CONTINUING TIME book to be published.)  

-And finally thought I would just re-quote the following posts in full:

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 1996 19:40:53 GMT

From: djheydt@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu

Subject: Re: Banks' Consider Phlebas -- what does the title mean?

Dean K Rizer <rizer001@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>- What does the title _Consider Phlebas_ allude to? ...

It's part of T. S. Eliot's _The Waste Land_ (1922).  Since no one else has

quoted the section, I shall:

                            IV. Death by Water

        Phlebas the Phoenician, a fortnight dead,

        Forgot the cry of gulls and the deep sea swell

        And the profit and loss.

                                  A current under sea

        Picked his bones in whispers.  As he rose and fell

        He passed the stages of his age and youth

        Entering the whirlpool.

                                Gentile or Jew

        O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

        Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

_The Waste Land,_ which is rife with explanatory footnotes, gives none for

this section.  It is foreshadowed, however, in a passage in Section I where

a clairvoyant gives a Tarot reading saying, "Here is your card, the drowned

Phoenician Sailor, (Those are pearls that were his eyes.  Look!) ... Fear

death by water.")

Now you know as much as I do; nay, rather, you know more, since I have

never been able to read Mr. Banks.

Dorothy J. Heydt

University of California

Berkeley

djheydt@uclink.berkeley.edu     

------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 1996 13:47:48 -0400

From: daa@seachang.demon.co.uk (David Allsopp)

Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu

Subject: Iain Banks -- Excession

My, I haven't felt so smug since last year's Babylon 5 series' final

episodes were shown here first.

I've just come back from having my copy of "Excession" signed by the

author, and I even managed time for a brief chat.  Contents of chat follow,

spoilers/comments for the book itself to follow when I've read it - a

couple of days at most.  I'm paraphrasing the conversation of course, but

I'm pretty sure I'm not misinterpreting.

Me: "Given that the typical Culture citizen (hah! now *that's* an oxymoron;

     Ed.) lives about 400 years, with death being regarded as something

     that gives meaning to life (see "A FEW NOTES ON THE CULTURE",

     sf-lovers archives), how does this apply to Minds?  And drones of

     course."

IMB: "I feel that they're beings with a much longer lifespan.  I'd expect

     Minds to go away, or disappear up their own beatitude, or something,

     after about 20,000 years.  Of course, the Culture's only been around

     for about 10,000 years..."

Me: "Will we have to wait another 4 years for the next Culture book?"

IMB: "I have a contract for 2 mainstream and 2 SF, but what the SF will be

     depends on how the ideas come.  Both, one or neither could be Culture

     books.  I do find the big ships, big laser cannons and so of the

     Culture very appealing though."

Me: "Do we meet any old friends in _Excession_?"

IMB: "No, but there's always a wee reference somewhere to things that have

     appeared in other books."

Er, that's it.  The photographer arrived, and I thought of another 500

questions on the way back :-(.  Oh well, at least I get to read the book.

David Allsopp

Aran Ltd.

daa@seachang.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

SFL Archives 1996: George RR Martin on DOORWAYS vs SLIDERS the tv-series

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 1996 23:53:52 GMT

From: gharlane@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore)

Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu

Subject: "DOORWAYS," was Re: Sliders

Rtk@gnn.com (Rae-Ann) writes:

> I've seen a lot of mention of this "Doorways"; what is it?

"DOORWAYS" was a TV series that George R. R. Martin created about half a

decade back. There was a pilot film shot, and it's not bad. It's never

been aired on TV in the U.S., although it did a few movie theaters in

Europe, and has been on TV there, and is rentable on tape outside the U.S.

Here are George R. R. Martin's comments on the subject of "SLIDERS" and

"DOORWAYS."

Mr. Martin has specifically given permission for this entry to be copied on

other networks.

SFRT II RoundTable

Category 15, Topic 18

Message 244 Mon Apr 17, 1995

G.MARTIN15 [GRRM] at 22:11 EDT

I had vowed not to discuss the DOORWAYS/SLIDERS situation any further, but

a great deal of rumor and misinformation is getting passed around here, and

the more things get repeated, the more distorted they become. GEnie and the

Internet obviously function like the old game of "telephone" here, with

people paraphrasing bits of news they've heard, and the facts malforming

further with every repetition.

So... sigh... let me set some facts straight.

I have never been asked to write for SLIDERS. For obvious reasons... at

least they are obvious to _me_. My reply, if asked, would likely be

unprintable.

Tracy Torme, the writer/creator of SLIDERS, was never involved in DOORWAYS,

nor did he ask to write for the show... at least not directly. At the time

when it appeared that DOORWAYS would be on the ABC Fall 1993 schedule,

Torme's _agent_ approached me while I was visiting my own agent (we are

both represented by ICM) and said that his client had read the script,

loved the concept, and would be interesting in writing for the show if we

went to series. A mutual friend (named Harlan Ellison) has subsequently

told me that Torme says he has "never" read the DOORWAYS script and never

expressed any interest in writing for it. I have no way of knowing, one

way or the other. I have a great deal of respect for Harlan and if he says

that Torme says this, I believe that Torme says this. It was not Torme who

approached me: it was Torme's agent, speaking on behalf of Torme. I have

been in the business long enough to know that agents sometimes, well...

embroider if they smell a job.

At any rate: I was never involved in any aspect of Torme's show and he was

never involved in any aspect of mine.

DOORWAYS was pitched to the Fox network on the same day it was pitched to

ABC; at that time, the Fox execs told me they loved it, it was very

original, they'd think about it. ABC bought it before they finished

thinking. Almost two years later, when DOORWAYS was complete, we showed

the pilot to Fox after ABC chose to go with LOIS & CLARK. Fox passed at

that time. The six back-up scripts were also shown to Fox, but I have no

idea whether they read them.

DOORWAYS has been released in many foreign countries on video, but not in

the US. Nor has ABC screened it. Someone above posted that they had

scheduled it for ninety minutes but cancelled it when they realized it was

two hours long. This is _almost_ correct, except for the lengths. ABC paid

for and has the rights to telecast the ninety-minute version. They

scheduled it for a _one hour_ slot, well over a year ago, and had to pull

it. Ninety minute slots are very hard to program. A two-hour version of

DOORWAYS does exist; that is the version released in Europe, Mexico,

Australia and elsewhere on video. ABC does not have rights to that

version, as they paid only for the ninety-minute and refused to up the ante

when we ran over budget and Columbia asked them for more money.

I hope that DOORWAYS will someday be seen, but I can't say how or when.

The chances of it becoming a series are extremely remote. It pains me

vastly to say that, since I believe DOORWAYS is as good as any work I have

ever done, and had it aired, it would have bid fair to be one of the best

SF series in the history of television. The writing was damn fair too. We

had six back-up scripts ordered - a very high number, ABC was _very_

gung-ho about this show once - by some very fine writers, including Michael

Cassutt, Edward Zuckerman, and Steve deJarnett, and our lead actors were

sensational. George Newbern is a very fine and likeable young actor, as

those who have seen in FATHER OF THE BRIDE and DESIGNING WOMEN and his many

other roles can testify. And Anne LeGuernec was simply magic, a French

actress utterly unlike anyone on television. If DOORWAYS have gone, I

believe Anne would have become a major star.

SLIDERS is utterly unlike DOORWAYS in its characters, stories, tone, and

general intelligence level. SLIDERS is relentlessly dumb; DOORWAYS tried

at least to be smart. DOORWAYS had humorous moments - I believe humor is

essential in television but, we strove to be witty and quirky, and the main

thrust of the show was drama and action/adventure. SLIDERS has a lot more

humor and that humor is broader, louder, and, well, dumber. If we were

trying for a touch of Woody Allen, they are trying Benny Hill. That's a

very crude metaphor, but it gives you the idea.

They are two very different shows, but the _concept_ is pretty much

identical. Each week the lead characters travel to another alternate world.

Unfortunately, in television, concept is all. If I did a show about a pair

of FBI agents investigating paranormal activity, the characters and tone

would likely be utterly different from X-FILES, but the series would still

never get on the air, because the executives look only at the concept. In

that sense, SLIDERS has effectively killed whatever small chances I have

remaining to launch DOORWAYS... but those chances were one in a million

anyway.

I said that the concepts were "pretty much" identical. There _is_ a small

difference. In DOORWAYS, the heroes were being pursued by a bad guy from

Cat's original world. On SLIDERS, I guess they are just adventuring

around, without the pursuit element. Alas, in the judgment of people I

trust, the distinction is not sufficient to distinguish the two shows in

the minds of executives.

There is currently no lawsuit. At one point I strongly considered suing,

and a number of lawyers felt I had a good case, but I was finally put off

the thought of the time and money involved. Subsequently, I have been told

that Torme was "thinking and talking" about SLIDERS well before I did

DOORWAYS. If indeed he could produce sufficient witnesses to prove that,

he would likely win in court... and it would be wrong of me to file. If he

could not prove it, my lawyers say I would likely win. I am presently

disinclined to gamble $50,000 to $100,00 on the result.

I have met Tracy Torme only once in my life, at a panel we were both on at

the Writer's Guild. I have no idea how truthful he is. We have one mutual

friend who assures me that Torme is a "stand-up guy" who would never do

anything unethical. We have another mutual friends who thinks, well, quite

otherwise. Me, I don't know what to think.

I will go back and check and see if I've corrected all the mistatements.

If not, I'll add a few further remarks to get the facts straight. If so,

however, let this be my last word on the subject. I know that people are

curious, and I do appreciate all the support I've gotten from friends, but

I feel like a recently bereaved mother whose friends keep saying, "So,

could you tell us again how your baby died?" I will be glad to discuss

DOORWAYS, but I am sick unto death of SLIDERS. I hope it goes away soon.

GRRM

[That's the end of GRRM's comments; this is me typing again.]

I recently got to see a version of the "DOORWAYS" pilot film again.

Then I went home and dug out my tape of the pilot movie for "SLIDERS," so I

could compare them with both fresh in mind.

The difference is huge; "DOORWAYS" had a couple of very interesting,

sympathetic characters. They were well-written and well-acted. The movie

was obviously done a *MUCH* smaller budget than the "SLIDERS" pilot, but

it's something you want to see again, and you want to see more of the

characters.

Remember scripts like "MASQUES," that George R. R. Martin did for "BEAUTY

AND THE BEAST?"

Well, he'd gotten better.

Even shooting a low-budget pilot movie, under great time pressue and

stress, he'd gotten better...

"DOORWAYS" is capable of competing, on an equal footing, with material shot

on a budget vastly larger; and demonstrates what WOULD have been a

wonderful series with great imagination and potential.

Mr. Martin's comments are professional, and non-inflammatory; he does not

seek to start a flame war or a huge discussion filled with non-productive

bile and spite, because he knows that kind of negativity just doesn't get

any MORE movies and TV shows written and into production.

But having seen the two pilot movies, and looked at the dates on them; and

having seen elements of many classic SF stories, prose and script, used in

Mr. Torme's products in the past, I honestly feel that Mr. Martin has been

ill-served by his so-called "peers" and competitors. GRRM has proven, time

and time again, that he can *produce* decent material out of thin air, on a

tight budget, with original concept and treatment. The work he did with

Ron Koslow on "BEAUTY AND THE BEAST," his movie version of "NIGHTFLYERS"

(made on considerably less than the cost of most major TV shows!), the work

he did on the new "TWILIGHT ZONE..." GRRM's track record speaks for

itself.

I have respect for Tracy Torme's work, too; while invariably highly

derivative, it *is* normally competent, and I'll always be pleased at the

way he sneaked the "BlueGills" into Goddenberry's sweetness and light

universe, and steamed G.R. off so badly that we never heard of BlueGills

again... But working in the field, even working WELL in the field, doesn't

give you a license to re-write other people's work, or to market their

concepts, and from where I sit, it *appears* that's what he did...

Parallel time tracks are old-hat in SF; travel between them is a hoarily

ancient concept. But a TV series based on jumping to a new parallel world

each week, now THAT's a fairly recent schtick, and if we're to believe

Torme's agent, one that MARTIN came up with first...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 1996 00:17:38 GMT

From: gharlane@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore)

Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu

Subject: Re: "DOORWAYS," was Re: Sliders

Just discovered I had some other G.R.R.M. comments on file, copied (with

the author's permission) over from "GENIE."

George R. R. Martin was queried on GENIE, and responded with the following,

and permission to repost it here:

SLIDERS: well, people will think what they want to think, but

let me say a few things.

A lawsuit is still an option, and will remain one for some time. I am not

proceeding right now, but I could go ahead tomorrow, or next week, or six

months from now, if I choose. I may do just that, depending on other

factors.

I am trying to purchase a large and rather expensive piece of land, as most

of you know.

You also know of the difficulties I've had there. Doing an expensive land

purchase and an expensive lawsuit simultaneously would have stretched me

pretty thin... but if the land purchase falls through, as it threatens to

do, well...

Of course, I would much prefer that SLIDERS die all by itself, and I think

the chances of that are good.

Whether or not you believe it is original, it is undeniably _awful_: badly

written, badly acted, and aimed at the lowest common denominator. Parallel

worlds for morons. If there is any vestige of taste remaining in the TV

viewing audience, SLIDERS will be gone within six episodes. It makes SPACE

RANGERS look like MASTERPIECE THEATER by comparison.

The notion of alternate worlds is indeed common in books... but _not_ in

television. Also, most alternate world stories involved a single parallel

Earth. The only previous alternate world show in TV history, the

short-lived OTHERWORLD (I _think_ that was the title) was of that nature.

DOORWAYS was designed around a format that took the characters to a

different alternate earth every week, a concept that was absolutely new for

television. I had various expert witnesses lined up to testify to that,

including network and studio executives, and even the SFRT's own Bill

Warren, with his encyclopedic knowledge of SF television and film.

SLIDERS has the same format, and its "creator" is a writer whose agent once

approached me to inquire about a staff position on DOORWAYS if it went to

series. The agent told me the writer had read my script and "loved" the

idea. Indeed he did...

So what you have is this. In the entire forty-year history of network

television, there had been exactly _one_ previous parallel world show, and

there had _never_ been a series pilot that proposed taking a set of

characters to a different alternate world every week. DOORWAYS was the

first. A year later comes a second, SLIDERS, with the same series format,

created by a writer who read the DOORWAYS script and wanted to write for

DOORWAYS. Perhaps this was purely a coincidence. I shall let the folks on

Internet make up their own minds, but I know what _I_ think.

(( OH, and for what it's worth, the Fox network was pitched DOORWAYS in the

concept stage, and were quite interested, although ABC moved faster. They

did _not_ tell me, "Oh, this is a common idea, we get variants pitched to

us every week." They _did_ say, "Wow, this is something really different

and unique, we don't have anything like this."))

------------------------------

SFL Archives Vol 12b readthrough update 03

 100% completion, 92 bookmarks.

-1987 technology level: How booksellers were able to determine what books were in print/what new titles were coming out before the Internet existed, a phonebook sized catalog released every 6 months named BOOKS IN PRINT.

-1987 technology level: a dismissive SPACE HARRIER arcade game reference, also the first mention of arcade games since the constant PAC-MAN puns back in 1980/1981 .

-The first appearance of "Trelane is Q" regarding STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION in SFL Archives history. There will be more statements and reworkings of this initial post.

-SIGN OF CHAOS discussion kicks off. Motivations of Dara, Jurt, Luke, etc. Merlin being extremely dim aka Roger Zelazny's series planning/lack of series planning, etc.

-STAR TREK chat: TransWarp. Why doesn't the Enterprise wrap everything in Vernor Vinge stasis-field bubbles/bobbles? SFLer's that have only read Larry Niven KNOWN SPACE stories and understand only the Nivenian take on stasis technology start to finally interact with SFLers that have read Vernor Vinge stories/ understand the Vingian bobbles/stasis fields.

-Western business have been increasingly importing (translated) Japanese business books (Kaizen and popular fiction in an attempt to replicate the dominance Japan automotive companies have shown vs Western automotive companies. KAIZEN & THE BOOK OF FIVE RINGS are mentioned.

-The PRINCESS BRIDE movie comes out, the movie adaptation of George RR Martin's THE NIGHTFLYERS comes out, the MAX HEADROOM tv series gets cancelled after two seasons of poor ratings (ironic),  and the now vastly forgotten BEAUTY AND THE BEAST tv series starring Linda Hamilton & Ron Perlman airs in the fall of 1987.

-THE HIDDEN 1987 movie comes out and lots of SFLer's notice the similarities in it to Hal Clement's Needle series about 2 alien life-forms coming to Earth/living inside bodies/1 of alien lifeforms being evil, and the other alien lifeform being a intergalactic cop hunting them down.

(2020 note: THE HIDDEN 1987 movie aged pretty well.) 

-A few SFLer's are confused by the concept of SPACE ELEVATORS in David Brin's SUNDIVER novel. 

(2020 note: To be fair, space elevators are a rare geeky subject in 2020, especially so circa 1987.)

-The Winter 1987 version of now forgotten weird SF&F themed tv-shows: CAPTAIN POWER the lightgun focused tv series, the Andy Griffith SALVAGE 1 tv-show comes up again, HERCULOIDS, TEEN FORCE, OTHERWORLD, THUNDARR, THE PEOPLE, SHAZAM!, BATMAN AND THE SUPER SEVEN, CLIFFHANGERS, etc.

-One of the first mentions of M John Harrison in the SFL Archives. The VIRICONIUM series and THE CENTAURI DEVICE are discussed. First mention of Brian Herbert(son of Frank Herbert) and his GARBAGE CHRONICLES series

-SPACE EATER (David Langford), DOOMSDAY EFFECT (Thomas Wren), REINDEER MOON (Elisabeth Marshall Thomas),  Change War stories by Fritz Leiber, WORD-BRINGER (Edward Llewellyn), EC Tubb's DUMAREST SAGA, IT: THE TERROR BEYOND SPACE movie, TRAVELLERS REST (David J Mason), URTH OF THE NEW SUN/EMPIRES OF FOLIAGE AND FLOWER (Gene Wolfe).

-SFLer's debate future policing methods of the 2030's in fiction and what they think will happen IRL and the IRL predictions are so far off the target from a 2020 viewpoint it is painful to even mention.

-Upcoming Convention notices in the SFL Archives break out of the moratorium they have been under since 1983. This leads to the first standalone posting of the NECRONOMICON convention in the SFL Archives.

-MORIGU: THE DESECRATION illustrates the differences of opinions SFLer's have on books. One SFLer loves it and recommends it to others because the dwarven behavior in it is such a amusing loutish contrast to the uptight Elves also in it. Another SFLer found it dark and brooding and filled with way too much blood, gore and hyper-violence to enjoy MORIGU or bother reading any sequels to it.

-First mention of a Net interview occurring with crowd-sourced questions for the interviewee in the SFL Archives. Vonda McIntyre is the interviewee and the SFLer requesting unique questions lays out the now standard ground rules of "don't be an asshole/don't doxx their personal life/don't be sexist". 

-A slight uptick in why F&SF books get published over others leads to mentions of Judy-Lynn Del Rey's (rip) efforts to get some older iconic fantasy and science fiction stories republished, which lead to SFLer Chuq Von Rospach establishing themselves as the 1987 SFLer who knows everything book publisher/author/SFWA related.

-I find myself agreeing with Mark R. Leeper on certain books/movies (LIFEFORCE). Turns out that Evelyn & Mark Leeper are capable of delivering good critiques and reviews on things F&SF related, if they take the time to do so. Unfortunately, Evelyn & Mark Leeper prefer posting extremely rushed "First Impression" 60 second reviews of everything Fantasy & Science Fiction they come across. 

-Vampire stories/Dracula focused stories suddenly becomes a thing for 3 or 4 dedicated SFL Digests. Dracula backstory/future history after resurrecting, with Anne Rice's LESTAT series and her earlier under a pen-name vampire stories coming up.

-A SFLer wants to know the rules to the PYRAMIDS poker game variant in the BATTLESTAR GALACTICA 1978 tv-series. 

-SFLer Tim Iverson establishes themselves as the SFLer willing to throw down 24/7/366 over William Gibson/NEUROMANCER criticism.

-Raymond Feist RIFTWAR series discussion. Feist has come up a few times before but nothing serious that lasted beyond 2 posts until now. Raymond Feist writing his novels for audiences pre-conditioned to understand the references and monsters that Feist brings up, but never describe in detail. Feist's RIFTWAR series being based on a real RPG setting, with Feist working at a few RPG development companies while planning out/writing the RIFTWAR books.

-7th Doctor DOCTOR WHO series feedback trickles in as 1987 closes out. SFLer's who post about the 7th Doctor episodes really cannot stand Bonnie Langford, with the final Doctor Who related post in SFL Vol 12b being about a new female Companion called Ace replacing Bonnie Langford. 

-The 2nd thrugh 5th episodes of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION come out in the fall/winter of 1987. SFLer's initial to the 2nd episode are still mostly complaints/nitpickings, with mild hopes Q was/is a one-off character. Proto-Incels start referring to Troi as BETAMAX. Mild complaints about Data and Wesley being over-powered in the 2nd episode. Hating on Tasha Yar tapers off,  SFler's note Troi not really having a function on the bridge. The infamous flower-hippies episode airs, and then the mildly racist Ferengi episode, then the creepy Traveller -that-has-grooming-plans-for-Wesley airs. By the time the 5th TNG episode airs gradual acceptance of most of the TNG cast except for Wesley Crusher has sent in. A vocal subset of the SFLer's who watch ST: TNG start  theory-crafting ways Wesley Crusher could be killed/aged up and sent to StarFleet Academy ASAP, etc.  

-A SFLer reposts an infamous circa 1987 open-letter to Gene Roddenberry about STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION and the canned response it got.

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  6 Nov 87  11:56:59 EST

From: NCC1701%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

Subject: The letter...

                                                Linda Peterson

Mr. Gene Roddenberry

"Star Trek"

ABC

Dear Sir:

  Although I am not a confirmed "Trekie", I looked forward to the

new Star Trek television series.  My overwhelming disappointment

caused me to write this letter.

  My concerns:

       Do you really believe in white male supremacy?  Surely the

       future will be more equitable - such as...

          An "Asian type" captain (we are outnumbered now by Asian

          peoples).  Also, baldness in the future?  I doubt it.

          Jonathan Frakes just does not have the face of a strong,

          aggressive "Number One" - perhaps a Latino, or a Jimmy

          Smits type.

          Do you really see "Miss Emotion" going into battle in a

          mini-skirt?!  The costumes in general lack imagination.

          Mr. Data looks like PeeWee Herman with his off-white skin

          and slicked back hair.  All the hairstyles seem to some

          from yuppie America.

          Do we really need another TV show with the young wiz-kid,

          who will obviously save the day.  Heck, why not add Lassie

          to the cast.

  Yes, the show did have some strong points.  The storyline fit the

mold.  The Klingon and "Blind" crew member are interesting.  Surely

the show will progress.  Maybe there will be an accident and some of

the crew will have to be replaced.  I won't change the channel yet.

  Thanks for listenning.

                                   Sincerely,

                                   /s/ Linda Peterson

10/5/87

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  6 Nov 87  11:57:40 EST

From: NCC1701%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

Subject: The Reply...

Paramount Pictures Corporation

October 27, 1987

Ms. Linda Peterson

Dear Ms. Peterson,

Thank you for your recent letter to Gene Roddenberry.  Although his

schedule doesn't permit him to respond to you personally, he has

taken the time to read your comments.  He is glad you felt strongly

enough about STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION to let him know your

thoughts about it.

Many of the suggestions we received in letters such as yours have

merit and may influence future episodes.  We hope you will continue

to watch STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION to see these developements.

Sincerely,

/s/Susan Sackett

Susan Sackett

Assistant to Gene Roddenberry

SS:akd

------------------------------

SFL Archives Vol 11 readthrough update 02

Current status: 15% completion in SFL Archives Vol 11, 48 bookmarks. 

-David Eddings apparently ripping off Lloyd Alexander's PRYDIAN series wholesale gets brought up a multiple times by different SFLers using variants of this quoted post:

"I read -and enjoyed- the Belgariad, but

it was an almost exact copy of another five book series, the Prydain

series by Lloyd Alexander (The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron,

The Castle of Llyr, Taran Wanderer, and The High King), up to and

including stubborn red-haired princess!  If I were Lloyd Alexander,

I would have filed for copyright infringement!"

-Talk of scifi & fantasy stories built around time-travel and astrally projected main characters brings up a weird fantasy-slash SciFi story that turns out to be THE NIGHT LAND by William Hope Hodgson (2020 readers: be prepared for lots of repetition and filler text involving the main character eating and drinking and sleeping and eating and drinking and sleeping and eating and sleeping and drinking).

-A SFL Archives post about asking if voice actors that read the SFL mailing are willing to share their work experiences is notable mainly because the person making the request cross-posted it to net.sf-lovers, net.startrek and net.movies

-Jean M. Auel's corpus of work comes up as does her writing one-handed fixation on writing in caveman harlequin romance plots into them.

-SFLers try decoding the alliterative names used to insert other fantasy genre and scifi genres authors in your lighter stories that was the de rigueur thing to do for a while in the 1970's-80's

-Someone recommends Spider Robinson's NIGHT OF POWER for it's inclusion of and I quote "touches on (and occasionally fondles) prostitution, rape, pubescents, adultery, and (gasp) miscegenation."  (2020 readers: These themes crop up in almost EVERY Spider Robinson story I've come across in my "give Spider Robinson a 2nd chance re-read attempt.) 

-The 1985 Controller of BBC 1 explains why the DOCTOR WHO series briefly went on hiatus for ""(being) too violent, plots had become boring and repetitive" reasons, and threatened total Doctor Who series cancellation if the show ratings did not improve.

-L Ron Hubbard dies at a undisclosed location sometime in early 1986, Zenna Henderson death notice.

-Timothy Zahn's COBRA series comes up and gets very mixed to extremely negative reviews. Wondering how much COBRA series content got recycled into Zahn's much better well known STAR WARS EU stories?  

-1st mention of iconic children's cartoon VOLTRON in the SFL Archives. 

-George RR Martin's HAVILAND TUF short stories gets brought up a few times. They sound interesting but I am not dropping my "NEVER READ GEORGE RR MARTIN STORIES" rule

-A Feb 19th 1986 LA TIMES article mentioned how a bunch of local SF writers got together after the Voyager 2 spaceprobe did a flyby of Uranus and started getting very notMad about a Harpers Magazine article called "THE TEMPLE OF BOREDOM" by Luc Sante.

-Someone tries to revive (and commercialize) the SF-LOVERS t-shirt SFL subscribers used to lowkey identify each other at Fantasy and SciFi conventions...aka the thing Robert Forwards edgelord son designed back in late 1980

-The SPACE MERCHANTS series by Fredrick Pohl & Cyril M. Kornbluth gets brought up by 1986 SFLers as a 1984-the-book warning of how bad things could get in the future (2020 take: they had no idea)

-R. Ramsay takes self-promotion to a new stage in the SFL Archives and self-publishes their "best (SF) short story" to the SFL mailing list. (2020: I powerskimmed it and uh.... 'Sam Spade written by William Gibson' is how I would describe it) 

-Someone scoops the on-site location shooting for STAR TREK 4 regarding DeForrest Kelly at a local 20th century hospital

 -Hank Buurman discloses the survey responses he got for "posting on female sexuality in sf/fantasy" in the SFL mailing list. Hank Buurman did get ot a lot of responses, but the responses Hank Buurman received were thoughtful and full of details. Since no one requested anonymity, Hank Buurman includes the login names/email addresses of the people who responded next to extracts of their posts. Since Hank Buurman didn't feel anonymity was cool for people, I returned the favor in kind.

-Excerpts from the HARPERS MAGAZINE article "THE TEMPLE OF BOREDOM" mentioned earlier get re-posted to the SFL Archives. Without the full essay to read....the excerpts given just ramble from topic to topic <rimshot burn on my SFL Archives readthrough in a nutshell I guess> 

-The benefits of subscribing to Locus Magazine for the low low cost of only $24 per year *in 1986 money valuation* Not sure what has changed regarding the Locus Magazine of the 1980s vs the Locus Magazine of modern times (2020 guess: it went digital and costs more is my uneducated, not looking things up at all guess)  

-A "Secular Humanist Revival" panel hosted by Orson Scott Card at the upcoming INCONJUNCTION 6 in July 1986 gets teased.

-Book publishers always seeming to finally publish all the stories and books of authors they could never manage to do when the author was alive...this time it's Philip K Dick getting the post-mortem career boost.

-SIME/GEN Householding and whatever the hell it is comes up a few times. Channels, Rensimes, Companions, Gens, and Sosectu's are name-dropped. Guessing Sime/Gen is some version of pre-Internet LARPing

-TRAVELLER RPG comes up again, with requests for interstellar merchant fiction. GRRM's Haviland Tuf gets recommended again, and my love of the TRAVELLER RPG makes me break my "NEVER READ GEORGE RR MARTIN STORIES" rule and add the Haviland Tuf stories to my reading list. <damn it>

-James Blish's CITIES IN SPACE series also gets recommended to the TRAVELLER RPG fan, however I have read those Cities in Space stories and they are exactly as hypocritical as everything involving 1980's televangelists & money/adultery.

-HIGHLANDER 1 gets released, it rocks, and Sean Connery hits the "kissing on the lips costs more" uh "non-Scottish accents cost more" phase of his acting career

-The "Why do producers keep remaking successful films every couple of decades?" question comes up, and SFLers start mentioning various 1970's-1980's film remakes.

-A small publishing house based in Willimantic CT that seemingly specialized in doing limited publication small print runs of Gene Wolfe books has come up in the SFL Archives over and over again since 1981/1982. *HINT* Given the printing press technology level back then, suspect that Gene Wolfe mega-fan collectors might be able to score physical offset printing plates of Gene Wolfe's work if they contacted that publisher/the estate of the publisher. *HINT*

-KLAATU BARADA NICOTINE: A SFLer makes the observation of how in THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL 1951 movie, doctors were smoking heavily when discussing that Klaatu the alien ambassador somehow has a longer lifespan than Earth humans. HMMMM.

-One of the ultimate blue-collar Scifi book series comes up again, STAR RIGGERS by John DeChancie. Despite the subject matter <interstellar Big-BIG RIG trucker> and the wish-fullfilment factors in them, the Star Riggers series isn't terrible.

-April Fools jokes, 1986 edition 

-Judy-Lynn del Rey obituary notice. Judy-Lynn del Rey is mostly forgotten by modern SF fans, however Judy-Lynn del Rey is the person most responsible for dragging Science Fiction out of the sub-sub-genre slums and making SF more accessible to readers of all gamuts and backgrounds. RIP Judy-Lynn del Rey.

-EE Smith's in-novel solution to handling a Grand Fleet of a million spaceships: A large display tank and 200 four-armed telephone switch operators.

-Mark Leeper expands on why he thinks the 1975 BBC tv series THE SURVIVORS is one of the best SciFi series out there (2020 note: the 1975 version of THE SURVIVORS predicts a lot of things that went down in real life re: COVID19)     

-A few SFL people want to know WTF(and how playable IRL) the FENCE game in John Brunner's SHOCKWAVE RIDER is. (2020 take: Now I do too, damnit.)

-Someone finds it impossible to find slack time in the LOTR series if actual movies were made of the LOTR books  (2020 take: Peter Jackson laughs and laughs and laughs and laughs as Tidus from Final Fantasy X chimes in)

-SFLers notice a slew of typographical errors in the books that have been coming out lately. DAW usually comes up regarding this subject. (2020 take: Cutting back on copy-editors is usually a sign that book publishers are in trouble. DAW doesn't exist anymore (or does it?). Coincidence?) 

-THIEVES WORLD series comes up again. Essentially a shared universe for fantasy genre writers, with near free reign for the involved authors to f**k with other authors characters/plots. George RR Martin would adopt a similar method for his most-beloved series, the WILD CARDS setting.

-SKYCAM technology gets mentioned for 1st time or so in the SFL Archives. One SFLer thinks the first movie to use SKYCAM technology was the opening scene in HIGHLANDER 1(1986), while another SFLer thinks it was used in All the Right Moves(?)

-Exponential expansion of the ARPANET/other connected pre-Internet networks and how it all relates scarily to Algis Budrys's 1976 story MICHAELMAS.

-Someone reviews Jack Dann's THE MAN WHO MELTED, and comments that the book revolves around every character having severe psychological problems and Scream therapy being (the cause of?/the solution to?) the central mystery of the book. 

-Some deranged person wants links to the 13 episodes of HitchHikers Guide to the Net previously posted to the 1984 SFL Archives, and I hate them for bringing that hell back on me.

-The SFL Archives mailing list moderator-maintainer posts on 11 Apr 86:

Well, here it is almost 10 days after the beginning of April

and guess what?  I am *still* getting messages from people asking

about the new subscription charges announced in the April 1 edition

(Vol 11, #59) of SF-LOVERS.  For those of you who haven't gotten it

by now, that was the April Fool's issue.  I guess the issue was much

more subtle than I thought it was or else people were confused by

the fact that they received the issue after April 1.  Can you say

"slow mailers and lousy hardware"?  I thought so.  It seems we were

off the network for a few days and that delayed transmission of the

digest even though it was prepared far enough in advance.